Two Skeptics Discuss: What is Intuition?

Two old pals hanging out near the longing of great hearts.

Panio and I met when we both lived in New York shortly after we graduated from college. We worked in book publishing: he at Crown, me at Harcourt. Our love of books was at the center of our lives. He's always been (and will always be) a writer. I thought of myself (and probably always will) as a reader. We've now been friends for over 15 years.

We talk about life the way that old friends do, investigating the world that surrounds us together. If you read this Q&A, you'll see why Panio is one of my favorite people to talk to. 

I asked him if we could dig into this topic together for The Beautiful Voyager crowd. He was game! 

M: You and I were recently talking about how as we're getting older (we both turned 40 this year) we're both finally learning to listen to our intuition — be it about work or what to do on a Saturday. What's the deal? Why didn't we listen to our intuition before?

P: There were surely a number of factors; the biggest one for me was that intuition works in the realm of feelings. We’re a skeptical society, data driven, rationality loving, it’s brain-brain-brain all the time, and for a long time I played into that. When faced with a decision, if I’d feel a twinge of something, urging me to do or not do something, I’d push it aside and try to reason my way through it instead — for all the good that did. There’s that moment when you just know something is a terrible idea, that this job or project or person is a bad fit and going to make you unhappy, and yet you willfully disregard the feeling and do it anyway because there’s no clear reason not to. And then? It blows up in your face. Or vice versa, this sense that here’s a thing you should absolutely do, but the math doesn’t add up, so you let it go — only to regret it. Those experiences had to happen enough times for me to concede that maybe something I was feeling could be right, that feeling can trump thought, not just in my heart, but out in the world.

M: Is it intuition the right word for it? That's a word with bad connotations, right?

P: It’s true, it’s got lousy connotations — sounds childish or imaginary. “Gut” is much more respected, but I think that’s probably just sexism at play, as men love to talk about going with their gut. And “instinct” isn’t quite right because it doesn’t get at the idea that there’s learning behind intuition. I wish there were a word that combines wisdom with self-knowledge. There probably is — in German.  

M: What kind of advice would you give your kids about intuition? How do you think intuition is informed by experience — how do you think it changes over time?

P: That’s perfect framing, because I often think of intuition as being like a parent. It frequently tells you something you don’t really want to know right now. Like your mom or dad, intuition has your best interest at heart — it’s trying to help you, to protect you — but especially when you’re younger, you just don’t want to hear it, because then you’ll have to do something other than the careless thing you really want to do.

You’ve got a young child, like I do, so I’m sure you’ve seen Frozen. I remember during my first viewing, when Anna meets the dashing prince and he’s sweeping her off her feet, I found myself thinking, “What’s he hiding? This is too easy. This can’t be right.” And then he turns out to be a devious asshole and it was almost a relief, because like every parent in the audience I knew something was off. To be fair, that’s not a great example of intuition at play, that one’s more about identifying storytelling tropes, but they’re really not that different. In many ways, I see intuition as a kind of highly nuanced pattern recognition. It’s our brain sorting through all of these set-ups and inputs and consequences and then trying to ferret out what’s causality, so that we can replicate the good results and avoid the bad results going forward. There’s a pretty sophisticated set of data that needs to be gathered, with all sorts of false positives that we need to learn to discard. And then — the really hard part — the results get translated into feelings. Which we have to then acknowledge and interpret, another highly nuanced skill that takes time to develop.   

So, long-winded advice… pay attention to what you’re feeling. Don’t ignore it. Don’t belittle it. You don’t have to act on it impulsively, or at all, but at the very least, listen to what you’re trying to tell yourself through your body.

M: Should everyone be listening to their intuition, or do some people have bad intuition?

P: That’s a fascinating idea: bad intuition. I always assumed everyone had good intuition but they responded to it with varying degrees of appreciation. Of course there are people who always seem to make that key mistake again and again — what if they’re just following earnest yet terrible inner advice? I hope that’s not the case.    

M: Intuition is a weird concept but it seems important.

P: Yes, though I haven’t always been great about listening to intuition, I’ve been drawn to it. In fact, last week I went back to a novel I started writing when I was 26 and saw that the first line was “He should have known better.” So even back then I was obsessed with this idea that we intuitively know things, and yet for all sorts of reasons — pride, fear, desire — we discount them. At its heart, intuition is about identifying and communicating the truth. We live in an era that privileges reason above all else — it’s been that way for centuries — but there are limits to just applying intellectual analysis to our lives. It’s cognitively exhausting, and it’s not entirely accurate. It reminds me of how behavioral economics has come to dominate the field, because this idea of a “rational actor” has been disproven over and over by actual human experience. Intuition exists in this hazy yet critical realm between intellect and emotion. And it’s tailored to you. It’s made by you and it makes you. It’s your parent and your child. What’s more important than that?  

Thank you so much for sharing these thoughts about intuition, friend. I am so glad to have you in my life!

Panio Gianopoulos is a writer and editor based in NYC. His work has appeared in Tin House, Northwest Review, Salon, The Brooklyn Rail, The Rattling Wall, Big Fiction, Catamaran Literary Reader, Chicago Quarterly Review, and The Los Angeles Review of Books. He is the author of the novella A Familiar Beast and a forthcoming collection of short stories, How to Get Into Our House and Where We Keep the Money.

Postpartum Anxiety: Stephanie Lucianovic's Story

Stephanie and Sir Arthur (or Cricket for short)

Stephanie Lucianovic and I first met a long, long time ago. I was working on a food magazine called CHOW. She was a recipe tester and writer, new to San Francisco. I loved how she mixed sardonic humor with insight about food and pop culture (hers is a familiar voice to fans of Television Without Pity). 

Stephanie wrote about her experiences with postpartum anxiety back in 2013 when she was still in the midst of it (and before the depression set in).  I wanted to ask her some questions about the experience. It's more widespread than you might realize...

MA: Did you know anything about postpartum anxiety before you were diagnosed with it?

SL: No. I knew about postpartum depression, but being told by a therapist that my racing thoughts and constant catastrophizing about my new baby was because of anxiety amplified by the postpartum stew I was in was completely new to me. 

I was really (am still) annoyed that people talk so much about postpartum depression but not about postpartum anxiety. Because of this dearth of discussion, people going through it do not necessarily realize they are dealing with something real and treatable.

MA: What was the most confusing part of your experience? The most surprising? 

SL: The most confusing part was trying to see a therapist. I tried to go through my health insurance company but they — of course — are a complete mess with most things but mental health services in particular. I couldn’t even call the regular access line to learn about which professionals near me took my insurance. I had to be given some completely other phone number to call and start that entire call, jab numbers, wait, jab more numbers, get a real person, explain wait, etc. process all over again. It’s not like it’s news that the health insurance industry treats mental health like some backdoor enterprise but it was demoralizing to have it confirmed in such a ridiculous way.

The most surprising part was that postpartum anxiety existed. And also that breastfeeding doesn’t ward it off or prevent it from happening, which seems to be a thing breastfeeding advocates like to trumpet.

MA: All told, how long did your postpartum anxiety last?

SL: About nine months, which is when I weaned. With my first son, I assume that’s when my postpartum depression set in but I didn’t realize it because I was making sure to get out, go for walks, go to postpartum yoga, be around other new mothers, etc. With my second son, I was managing two kids’ very different schedules, so I couldn’t just do whatever I wanted and therefore felt my postpartum depression much more keenly and disastrously. So for that second time, my postpartum anxiety went nine months but then the postpartum depression was with me for longer. It was almost a year before I felt that it had lifted.

MA: This question comes from a discussion we had about the topic. One of the first things I had to learn about worrying is that it wasn't helping me get things done. In other words, I wasn't better at my job, etc, for worrying. In what ways do you agree or disagree? What (if anything) do you think anxiety has brought to your life? 

SL: I have always been a worrier. This has just been who I am. My parents called me the family “worrywart,” and I’ve grown up accepting that it’s part of me. I used to think that worrying was my way of preparing myself for how I would deal with the catastrophic. Like, that I had to think through the horrible events since I knew I was the only one who would then be prepared to deal with them while everyone else fell apart.

Stephanie's book on picky eating -- check it out

To some respect, worrying does/did help me get things done. I was never late with a paper in college because the impending deadline gave me so much anxiety and the same goes for every freelance writing or editing assignment I’ve ever had. Ditto when I worked in publishing and treated our various deadlines as, you know, REAL deadlines. I’ll never forget when I was twisting over whether Editorial was going to get the catalog copy finished on time and my managing editor said, “Bless her, she thinks deadlines actually matter around here!”

The best thing that happened to me was when my agent (for my book) once said to me, “Deadlines slip, print dates are moved” when I was stressing out whether or not I’d finish the manuscript on time. I did finish it on time — even a week early — but I put myself and my family through such hell during that writing time because I was so anxious that I wouldn’t make the deadline.

So, yes, anxiety has made me “productive” but all that worrying is a horrible way to live.

And yet: I know that being a picky eater is connect to being an anxious person and if I hadn’t been a picky eater for 27 years, I wouldn’t have turned into someone who adores food as much as I do now. I wouldn’t have written my first book about it.

Also, if I hadn’t been so anxious, I wouldn’t have consistently pursued the things that relieved my anxiety (running, hiking, yoga, and meditation) which now do more for me than just relieve my anxiety. For instance, if I’m blocked on a work-in-progress, I’ve gotten better (but not perfect) at backing away from it. Instead of banging my head on the keyboard, trying to beat it out of myself I go on a run or I meditate. Quite frequently, the block I was experiencing releases during one of those times. Other times meditation, hikes, or runs actually inspire new projects.

To some respects, I could say that having anxiety that needs to be managed has a direct line to being more creative and a better writer. It’s a bit like how my asthma makes me healthier because I run.

I have asthma—> Asthma is helped by lung strengthening —> Running (exercise) strengthens your lungs —> I run —> I am overall healthier because I run

MA: What do you wish people most knew about postpartum anxiety?

SL: That it’s real. That it happens. And it needs to be acknowledged, brought out into the open and talked about as much as we talk about retightening our freaking kegel muscles after giving birth. 

People do not need to suffer in silence or think that what they are going through is an inability to handle being a parent.

Thank you so much for taking the time to share this info, Stephanie! I definitely want to revisit some of these topics with you again in the future.

Transatlantic GADfest

Questions from an American Gaddie to a UK GADDer

Rachel Hawkins of Our.Rach from Bristol, England (in conversation with Meredith Arthur)

MA: Did you make up the term GADDer? I made up Gaddie. I don’t know what we’re actually called, either in the US or in the UK.

RH: To be honest, I’ve never really referred to it as a term, but I guess if I were to then it would be GADer.  I’m not too sure if there is a term that is referred to GAD sufferers, I’ve certainly never heard of anything before.

MA: Can you tell us a little about how you found out you had GAD? How did you decide to start writing about it? 

RH: I was diagnosed in January 2015.  I’ve always been something of a worrier, dating back to early childhood. I was diagnosed with OCD at the age of 8 and struggled with the overwhelming feeling of worrying on and off for years subsequently.  Everything came to a head for me during 2014 and into early 2015, I had my son in late 2013 and suffered from Post Natal Depression & Anxiety, I had a breakdown New Year 2015 which culminated in me being diagnosed.  I had it in my head that I was suffering from something like Bipolar or Schizophrenia, health anxiety has always been at the helm of my anxious state.  I was put on Citalopram which is an SSRI drug, slowly building up my dosage (I was terrified of the side effects – to be honest, they were nowhere near as bad as I thought they’d be) and referred to the Mental Health team near to where I live.  This was for me to be assessed for Bipolar and/or other mental health conditions.  After a couple of appointments where we discussed all sorts of topics surrounding my mental health, it was decided that I was in fact suffering from Generalised Anxiety Disorder.  I’d heard about the condition before, and wondered if I may have had it, once the diagnosis was confirmed everything started to make sense a little bit.

In June 2015 I decided I wanted to finally fulfil a long term goal of mine, to begin a blog.  I didn’t consider writing about GAD or my experience with PND/PNA initially but in August 2015 I decided the time was right for me to put finger to keypad and talk about my illness and what I’d been through.  The reason for this was twofold.  I find writing cathartic and I also wanted to potentially help others.  I recall reading a few blogs about Post Natal OCD when I was at my very worst, not long after I’d had my son.  It helped me more than you could ever imagine, to realise that what I was suffering, was something that others suffered from too.  Although I wouldn’t wish the condition on my worst enemy, it did help me to gain a tiny bit of perspective at a very challenging and turbulent time.

MA: Was it hard for you to talk about in the beginning? Did you feel like you were “coming out of the closet”? I ask because I’m trying to figure out how the UK is different or similar to the US.

RH: In all honestly, it really wasn’t.  I remember my first ever ‘mental health’ blog.  It was called  ‘My Experience With Post Natal Depression & Anxiety’, it was such a long post, but I really enjoyed writing it.  It put a lot of things to bed for me and meant my site took on a totally different dimension.  To have people contact me to say that reading my post had helped them was one of the best feelings in the world.  It meant so much to me that it had meant something to them.  Looking back, I can recall feeling a surge of anxiety and adrenaline when I hit publish on the post itself.  I knew deep down that I wouldn’t be judged, the people I have on my Facebook/Twitter etc. wouldn’t do such a thing.  Yeah there were people who I’d hoped might respond to it but didn’t, or contact me to ask how I was but never did, but hey I firmly believe when you go through something like I have, you realise who your true friends are.  You learn a lot about yourself and the people around you.

Here in the UK, I still find mental health seems to have a stigma that needs breaking down, even in the year 2016.  What worries me is how there seems to be many people out there who don’t feel like they are able to discuss their mental health condition as openly as they would if they had broken their leg for example or had a physical condition.  This makes me sad, by opening up about the conditions we suffer from, it allows us to accept support from others’ we might not have had and indeed treatment, if we hadn’t have discussed our mental health.  It also helps to break down these barriers that seem to surround so many people who suffer from mental health illnesses.  I hate the thought of anyone suffering in silence, feeling frighteningly alone and worrying they would be judged or vilified if they told someone how they were feeling.

MA: How does having anxiety differ in a mid-sized city like Bristol as opposed to London? Or a small town? Do you think it makes a difference? I think having anxiety in San Francisco, CA can be a different experience than in, say, Defiance, Ohio (where I lived as a little kid). 

Bristol looks pretty! I've never been.

RH: Difficult one to answer as I’ve only ever lived in Bristol. Bristol has, speaking from experience, a good mental health crisis team who I’ve dealt with on 2 separate occasions.  They don’t judge, they understand and they know exactly the right treatment to deliver in order to enable recovery.  I am a huge champion of the NHS, I feel incredibly lucky to live where I do and to have received the treatment I needed to get better.  Having spoke to a few people who suffer from mental health conditions in other parts of the UK, it’s my understanding that other cities around the country aren’t as lucky as us Bristolians.  Waiting lists can be a lot longer than Bristol’s and the right support can be hard to pinpoint.

MA: My impression is that there are more resources in England for anxiety than there are in the US, be it blogs or books (I’m reading DARE right now). Or, said differently, the awareness and discussion around anxiety seems more nuanced and mature than it does here in the US. Does that seem accurate to you?

RH: That’s an interesting point.  I work for an Education charity where mental health and wellbeing of staff is taken very seriously.  I definitely feel supported there, it’s a topic that I wouldn’t shy away from discussing there.  I definitely think that things are changing with mental health in the UK in that the Government seem to be taking it more seriously which is incredibly important.  I only hope they continue to inject as much money as possible into mental health services.

I’ve read some fantastic British blogs around the topic of anxiety and depression.  But then equally I’ve also read some great American ones too, a Post Partum Depression one will always stick out in my mind, I found great solace in that blog at the end of 2013.

Aside from support from health professionals,  I think there are some superb Anxiety support groups on Facebook, of which I’m a member.  There are also some GAD support groups too which are equally fantastic – it’s great to have those resources so easily assessable.  Mindfulness is something that has really taken off in the UK over the last couple of years, I’ve read a book by Ruby Wax around this topic. Mindfulness is a very effective tool in combating anxiety and I cannot speak highly enough about it, I’d certainly recommend fellow anxiety sufferers researching Mindfulness a little.

Charities like SANE, Time To Change and Anxiety UK do fantastic work to raise awareness of mental health and support sufferers.

From this side of the world, thank you so much for taking the time to share your wisdom, Rachel!

Finding Other Voices

One of the things that starting this project is doing for me is helping me find the other people who are writing about anxiety in a way I can relate to. It's so great that we have tools to be able to connect with each other. I found the work of Lisa Scott aka TheWorryGames.com through Twitter. (If you're on Twitter, you should be following her @TheWorryGames as well, of course, as Beautiful Voyager @nervesbegone.)

Here's an interview that Lisa did with Like-Minded Magazine, an online interview magazine founded in Amsterdam. Three of my favorite quotes from her interview:

"You gotta have a sense of humor if you have anxiety. A lot of it really is ridiculous and its okay to acknowledge that and have a laugh every now and then."

"I have trained myself to be an optimistic pessimist."

"I never would have been motivated to change the way I was living w/o the extreme discomfort & fear anxiety gave me."

I had posted this on the The Beautiful Voyager Facebook page, and then realized that there are people who come here who never see that. So I wanted it to be here too. Lisa's good words deserve to be heard!

The Winging It Spotlight on TWIGG How-To

I'm a big fan of the TWIGG How-to mission: "creating a damsel-free world, one article at a time." The women behind this project reached out and asked if they could reproduce my first piece on GAD, as well as run a short interview. I was honored that they wanted to feature me in their spotlight series. I wrote the piece in order to reach women in their 20s who have anxiety and don't realize it (as I didn't).  Here's the first pull quote they chose to illustrate. It really sums up everything I hoped to do there, and still feel is important here.